Roundtable: Tim Rattay
Should Smith have replaced Rattay as starter?
That is the question for this weeks 49ersNews Roundtable.
Erik Klackner
This is about the most complex question ever, at least for me. I wouldn't consider myself a Rattay 'homer' the way some people are accused of being, but I certainly was all for him getting another opportunity to show what he can do. Unfortunately, this opportunity is looking a lot like his last one, which is to say, not much of a fair fight. Again he finds himself surrounded by a virtually non-existent running game. The receiving corps was hurt with Arnaz Battle missing time. Rattay was constantly under pressure from Bertrand Berry and Co. because of the poor play of Anthony Clement in place of the injured Jonas Jennings. His favorite target, Eric Johnson, has missed (and will miss) the entire season.
Full Roundtable Discussion...
Even though comparatively the 49ers talent is weak in relation to everyone else, I still think there WERE enough pieces to see whether or not Rattay could perform. I felt going into the season that an offensive line of Jonas Jennings, Justin Smiley, Jeremy Newberry, Eric Heitmann, and Kwame Harris would give us a solid look at how Rattay could do with protection. I thought the Fred Beasley/Kevan Barlow/Frank Gore backfield would be able to run effectively. I thought Brandon Lloyd, Arnaz Battle, Johnnie Morton, and PJ Fleck would give Rattay reliable, if not unheralded, targets to throw to, particularly with the guidance of Jerry Sullivan. And I thought his safety valve, Eric Johnson, would continue to help him when the going got rough. Unfortunately, this opportunity was taken from the 49ers yet again. The offense is left as a shell of itself, or at least was against the Cardinals. That fair shot is nowhere to be found, at least with this team.
With the injuries sustained on defense, I think it's safe to say that this team is reverting to last year, being the worst team in the NFL. The aspirations of winning the NFC West, while not entirely out the question, appear to be a pipe dream at best. This is not a similar situation to the Giants last season, when they were 5-4 and benched Kurt Warner for Eli Manning. The 49ers have far too many key injuries to make a sustained run at the playoffs.
Give Alex Smith the starts from here on out. 12 starts will help him going forward.
I would strongly consider offering Tim Rattay to the Lions for a 5th-7th round pick, even if it ends up being the latter. Maybe it's just an excuse for me to see if he would answer my own questions about him, but I think he would fit in exceptionally well there.
Alex, it's go time.
Vini Chopra
It all depends on the reasoning. I don't buy Nolan's reasoning that Alex Smith gives this team a better chance to win. You'd be hard pressed to find many rookie NFL QBs not named Ben Roethlisberger who can account for more wins for their franchises. On top of that, Alex Smith might be talented but he's working with very little in terms of supporting talent. The offensive line has holes, the running game is not going anywhere, there has been 0 TE production, and while Brandon Lloyd and Arnaz Battle have stepped up a tad bit they are still prone to mistakes and injuries.
That said, it's fine for Alex Smith to replace Tim Rattay if your reason is to build for the future and to develop Smith. But that is not going to translate to wins for the immediate moment. As ineffective as Tim Rattay has been, he is not the sole reason why the 49ers have been a bad team (though he hasn't helped either). So I respect the decision to go with Alex Smith in order to build for some kind of a future. I just wish that we would come out and admit that, rather than continue to play the PR game and say we're still competing for the NFC West. Yes we're only 1 game behind in the NFC West, but good teams don't find ways to get blown out by the Arizona Cardinals of all teams. When I look at that game and the other games that we've played this season I just can't bring myself to the conclusion that Alex Smith, as much potential as he has down the line, could have won those games by himself or made a significant difference.
What I'm getting at is that whether Alex Smith replaces Tim Rattay or not is irrelevant from my perspective. There are so many holes on this roster that I don't feel that Alex Smith will make any sizeable difference yet. At the same time, it is good to see him come in, earn his paycheck, and become groomed for the future. This franchise is going nowhere fast and we have to concentrate on drafting for next year and building a new core of talent. Alex Smith and his salary/draft status play into that new core quite substantially so from that standpoint, him replacing Tim Rattay is good in that it signifies that we are trying to rebuild ourselves. But if you're a 49er fan looking for immediate impact and immediate wins, Alex Smith replacing Tim Rattay should not make any difference in terms of wins and losses. To win in this league you need players, and moreso, you need talented players for your scheme. Alex Smith maybe 1 of those pieces, but football is an 11 man sport and our supporting 10 on offense are not very good to say the least.
Jeremy Burnham
No way should he lose his job, what the hell? Now I know he HAS, and I can't really see why. Let's look at everything which has happened. He played great against the Rams. He led us to that win, and finished with a very high QB rating. Anyone who thinks week two was his fault doesn't understand football. That was a case of one team being much better than the other team. And an O-Line not even coming close to being able to protect their QB. The greatest QB in the history of the NFL would not have gotten anything done either. The O-Live never gave him a chance.
Moving on to week 3, he played very very well against the Cowboys. Yes, he made the one mistake, which came at an awful time. But all and all, it was one mistake, and one mistake shouldn't have been enough to lose that game. He played well enough to win. He put the team on top. It's not his fault the team gave up a huge lead, and that the defense decided to let the Cowboys score at will. Rattay had a very good game...
Which brings us to the Cards. He sucked, I won't deny it. I just didn't know he was ONE BAD GAME away from losing his job, which is the stupidest idea I've ever heard. ONE BAD GAME. He's had one bad game, two very good game, and the one game which he had no chance in, and Nolan decides to make a change. You've got to be kidding me. Yes I know, Smith came in, and moved the team quite well against the Cards. But HELLO. WAKE UP AND USE YOUR HEAD. THINK A LITTLE. By that time, the Cards were only sending 3 men to rush. Rattay had been beaten up and blindsided all day, and Smith comes in and faces NO RUSH whatsoever. And people REALLY wonder why Smith played better. You HAVE to be kidding. This makes me sick, I have to stop talking now. I had high hopes for Nolan. I'm a supporter. I still think it's too early to judge him, but this move makes him a much bigger idiot in my book...
Nick Newton
There are a couple of areas that need definite clearing up before the question is actually answered. Number one, Rattay is more experienced, and hasn't done anything to deserve being replaced. Majority of his INT's this year were tipped. And make no mistake, we would win more games in 2005 with Rattay under center. Thats just the way it works. But obviously coach Nolan thinks it's more valuable to chance Smith and get him a jump on the start, and thats a good call too. 2005 is going to be a painful rest-of-the-season no matter which way you mince it, so might as well get Smith the jump on his new team.
There are a couple of things that Nolan must be careful of. The pass protection is still not very good this year, and when you take a QB who was the best at what he did in college and put him into the NFL behind a crappy line, he can get hit, he can get hurt, and his confidence can suffer (Tim Couch, Akili Smith, David Klinger). On the other hand, letting a first round pick (and all that money) sit on the bench too long can cause what is referred to as 'rusting out'. All in all the rookie QB is a major gamble. But the payoffs through history (when there are payoffs) are large (Ben R. (Pitt) Carson Palmer (Cin) Peyton Manning (Ind) Troy Aikman (Dall) the list goes on. ) Smith has just a good a shot as any of those to be great. But things must be done delicately. Mark my words.
Matt Gagnon
Lets be realistic here folks. Everyone for the past several months has been quoting Mike Nolan saying that it is the goal of the 49ers to win the division - and thus, with that philosophy it would be natural to assume the veteran quarterback would give you a better chance to put you in that position than the ultra green rookie.
But through the first several games of the year, it has become clear that Nolan's goal of winning the division is akin to an 800 pound woman setting the goal of seeing her feet - that is a goal you set so that when you miss it, you're still a hell of a lot better off than you are right now.
Same reason a friend of mine always set the goal of a 4.0 GPA every semester, so that he tries for it, but if he misses it he had tried so hard to get a 4.0 that he probably still ended up with something in the 3.5 range.
The 49ers aren't winning the division folks, and anyone with any sense of reality knew that. Maybe by setting the goal of a division, the niners pull out 5 or 6 wins in stead of 2 or 3. We'll see.
But regardless, its clear that Tim Rattay was not giving the team something so valuable that its removal would really kill the team. Indeed, when Smith came into the Mexico game, he looked decent enough to not destroy the team if he was in the game over Rattay.
So, that basically says to me that switching quarterbacks isn't going to change the outcome of any games at all. Rattay was not bringing something to the table that was making a difference on the team that could carry the team to wins - the people doing that are named Bryant Young, Brandon Lloyd and Tony Parrish.
So, if he's not a difference maker, why NOT bring in the rookie if you're really not losing much? If Smith is indeed to be the future of the franchise, he needs to get reps, and as I said weeks ago - the sooner the better. If the 49ers win some games its going to be for reasons other than the quarterback, no matter if its Smith or Rattay.
And at the very least, its not a bad idea since Smith is a much more mobile and elusive quarterback and the offensive line basically consists of junior high school players these days.
Its a hell of a trial by fire, but at this point, there's no reason not to put him in. Besides, sometimes the best way to find out about people is to see how they react to being slaughtered and failing. Will they melt down, or will they turn up their play? Frankly, it probably won't get any harder for Smith than playing right now - so we may as well see what the kid is made of. If he makes it out alive, we'll have a quarterback made of mental steel, which will bode well for our future.
That is the question for this weeks 49ersNews Roundtable.
Erik Klackner
This is about the most complex question ever, at least for me. I wouldn't consider myself a Rattay 'homer' the way some people are accused of being, but I certainly was all for him getting another opportunity to show what he can do. Unfortunately, this opportunity is looking a lot like his last one, which is to say, not much of a fair fight. Again he finds himself surrounded by a virtually non-existent running game. The receiving corps was hurt with Arnaz Battle missing time. Rattay was constantly under pressure from Bertrand Berry and Co. because of the poor play of Anthony Clement in place of the injured Jonas Jennings. His favorite target, Eric Johnson, has missed (and will miss) the entire season.
Full Roundtable Discussion...
Even though comparatively the 49ers talent is weak in relation to everyone else, I still think there WERE enough pieces to see whether or not Rattay could perform. I felt going into the season that an offensive line of Jonas Jennings, Justin Smiley, Jeremy Newberry, Eric Heitmann, and Kwame Harris would give us a solid look at how Rattay could do with protection. I thought the Fred Beasley/Kevan Barlow/Frank Gore backfield would be able to run effectively. I thought Brandon Lloyd, Arnaz Battle, Johnnie Morton, and PJ Fleck would give Rattay reliable, if not unheralded, targets to throw to, particularly with the guidance of Jerry Sullivan. And I thought his safety valve, Eric Johnson, would continue to help him when the going got rough. Unfortunately, this opportunity was taken from the 49ers yet again. The offense is left as a shell of itself, or at least was against the Cardinals. That fair shot is nowhere to be found, at least with this team.
With the injuries sustained on defense, I think it's safe to say that this team is reverting to last year, being the worst team in the NFL. The aspirations of winning the NFC West, while not entirely out the question, appear to be a pipe dream at best. This is not a similar situation to the Giants last season, when they were 5-4 and benched Kurt Warner for Eli Manning. The 49ers have far too many key injuries to make a sustained run at the playoffs.
Give Alex Smith the starts from here on out. 12 starts will help him going forward.
I would strongly consider offering Tim Rattay to the Lions for a 5th-7th round pick, even if it ends up being the latter. Maybe it's just an excuse for me to see if he would answer my own questions about him, but I think he would fit in exceptionally well there.
Alex, it's go time.
Vini Chopra
It all depends on the reasoning. I don't buy Nolan's reasoning that Alex Smith gives this team a better chance to win. You'd be hard pressed to find many rookie NFL QBs not named Ben Roethlisberger who can account for more wins for their franchises. On top of that, Alex Smith might be talented but he's working with very little in terms of supporting talent. The offensive line has holes, the running game is not going anywhere, there has been 0 TE production, and while Brandon Lloyd and Arnaz Battle have stepped up a tad bit they are still prone to mistakes and injuries.
That said, it's fine for Alex Smith to replace Tim Rattay if your reason is to build for the future and to develop Smith. But that is not going to translate to wins for the immediate moment. As ineffective as Tim Rattay has been, he is not the sole reason why the 49ers have been a bad team (though he hasn't helped either). So I respect the decision to go with Alex Smith in order to build for some kind of a future. I just wish that we would come out and admit that, rather than continue to play the PR game and say we're still competing for the NFC West. Yes we're only 1 game behind in the NFC West, but good teams don't find ways to get blown out by the Arizona Cardinals of all teams. When I look at that game and the other games that we've played this season I just can't bring myself to the conclusion that Alex Smith, as much potential as he has down the line, could have won those games by himself or made a significant difference.
What I'm getting at is that whether Alex Smith replaces Tim Rattay or not is irrelevant from my perspective. There are so many holes on this roster that I don't feel that Alex Smith will make any sizeable difference yet. At the same time, it is good to see him come in, earn his paycheck, and become groomed for the future. This franchise is going nowhere fast and we have to concentrate on drafting for next year and building a new core of talent. Alex Smith and his salary/draft status play into that new core quite substantially so from that standpoint, him replacing Tim Rattay is good in that it signifies that we are trying to rebuild ourselves. But if you're a 49er fan looking for immediate impact and immediate wins, Alex Smith replacing Tim Rattay should not make any difference in terms of wins and losses. To win in this league you need players, and moreso, you need talented players for your scheme. Alex Smith maybe 1 of those pieces, but football is an 11 man sport and our supporting 10 on offense are not very good to say the least.
Jeremy Burnham
No way should he lose his job, what the hell? Now I know he HAS, and I can't really see why. Let's look at everything which has happened. He played great against the Rams. He led us to that win, and finished with a very high QB rating. Anyone who thinks week two was his fault doesn't understand football. That was a case of one team being much better than the other team. And an O-Line not even coming close to being able to protect their QB. The greatest QB in the history of the NFL would not have gotten anything done either. The O-Live never gave him a chance.
Moving on to week 3, he played very very well against the Cowboys. Yes, he made the one mistake, which came at an awful time. But all and all, it was one mistake, and one mistake shouldn't have been enough to lose that game. He played well enough to win. He put the team on top. It's not his fault the team gave up a huge lead, and that the defense decided to let the Cowboys score at will. Rattay had a very good game...
Which brings us to the Cards. He sucked, I won't deny it. I just didn't know he was ONE BAD GAME away from losing his job, which is the stupidest idea I've ever heard. ONE BAD GAME. He's had one bad game, two very good game, and the one game which he had no chance in, and Nolan decides to make a change. You've got to be kidding me. Yes I know, Smith came in, and moved the team quite well against the Cards. But HELLO. WAKE UP AND USE YOUR HEAD. THINK A LITTLE. By that time, the Cards were only sending 3 men to rush. Rattay had been beaten up and blindsided all day, and Smith comes in and faces NO RUSH whatsoever. And people REALLY wonder why Smith played better. You HAVE to be kidding. This makes me sick, I have to stop talking now. I had high hopes for Nolan. I'm a supporter. I still think it's too early to judge him, but this move makes him a much bigger idiot in my book...
Nick Newton
There are a couple of areas that need definite clearing up before the question is actually answered. Number one, Rattay is more experienced, and hasn't done anything to deserve being replaced. Majority of his INT's this year were tipped. And make no mistake, we would win more games in 2005 with Rattay under center. Thats just the way it works. But obviously coach Nolan thinks it's more valuable to chance Smith and get him a jump on the start, and thats a good call too. 2005 is going to be a painful rest-of-the-season no matter which way you mince it, so might as well get Smith the jump on his new team.
There are a couple of things that Nolan must be careful of. The pass protection is still not very good this year, and when you take a QB who was the best at what he did in college and put him into the NFL behind a crappy line, he can get hit, he can get hurt, and his confidence can suffer (Tim Couch, Akili Smith, David Klinger). On the other hand, letting a first round pick (and all that money) sit on the bench too long can cause what is referred to as 'rusting out'. All in all the rookie QB is a major gamble. But the payoffs through history (when there are payoffs) are large (Ben R. (Pitt) Carson Palmer (Cin) Peyton Manning (Ind) Troy Aikman (Dall) the list goes on. ) Smith has just a good a shot as any of those to be great. But things must be done delicately. Mark my words.
Matt Gagnon
Lets be realistic here folks. Everyone for the past several months has been quoting Mike Nolan saying that it is the goal of the 49ers to win the division - and thus, with that philosophy it would be natural to assume the veteran quarterback would give you a better chance to put you in that position than the ultra green rookie.
But through the first several games of the year, it has become clear that Nolan's goal of winning the division is akin to an 800 pound woman setting the goal of seeing her feet - that is a goal you set so that when you miss it, you're still a hell of a lot better off than you are right now.
Same reason a friend of mine always set the goal of a 4.0 GPA every semester, so that he tries for it, but if he misses it he had tried so hard to get a 4.0 that he probably still ended up with something in the 3.5 range.
The 49ers aren't winning the division folks, and anyone with any sense of reality knew that. Maybe by setting the goal of a division, the niners pull out 5 or 6 wins in stead of 2 or 3. We'll see.
But regardless, its clear that Tim Rattay was not giving the team something so valuable that its removal would really kill the team. Indeed, when Smith came into the Mexico game, he looked decent enough to not destroy the team if he was in the game over Rattay.
So, that basically says to me that switching quarterbacks isn't going to change the outcome of any games at all. Rattay was not bringing something to the table that was making a difference on the team that could carry the team to wins - the people doing that are named Bryant Young, Brandon Lloyd and Tony Parrish.
So, if he's not a difference maker, why NOT bring in the rookie if you're really not losing much? If Smith is indeed to be the future of the franchise, he needs to get reps, and as I said weeks ago - the sooner the better. If the 49ers win some games its going to be for reasons other than the quarterback, no matter if its Smith or Rattay.
And at the very least, its not a bad idea since Smith is a much more mobile and elusive quarterback and the offensive line basically consists of junior high school players these days.
Its a hell of a trial by fire, but at this point, there's no reason not to put him in. Besides, sometimes the best way to find out about people is to see how they react to being slaughtered and failing. Will they melt down, or will they turn up their play? Frankly, it probably won't get any harder for Smith than playing right now - so we may as well see what the kid is made of. If he makes it out alive, we'll have a quarterback made of mental steel, which will bode well for our future.
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